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Should the wall be build to keep away immigrants?
in Immigration
Debra AI Prediction
Arguments
Q: How do we secure the border?
A: By implementing effective security measures.
Q: What security measures do we need?
A: That depends on what type of security we're talking about.
Q: What are we looking to secure?
A: Access to the United States.
Q: How is security access established in most situations?
A: With the implementation of access control.
Q: How do we implement access control?
A: First by physically limiting the number of access points a person can use to a manageable number.
Q: How do we limit the number of access points to the United States?
A: The same way you limit the number of access points in any situation, you close it off entirely and build door ways, in this case we'd use gates.
It's a matter of simple security procedures. The border must be secure and in order to secure it you must limit the areas where people can physically cross. Without a wall it would take hundreds of thousands of border patrol agents to keep illegal immigrants from crossing. Sex trafficking, drug trafficking and the general abuse and detestable treatment of children while attempting to cross the border is reason enough to put a total stop to it. It's not safe for them and it's illegal to boot. At this point I'm willing to support anyone who hasn't used the same line the last 3 presidents have used, throwing more money and tightening the rules hasn't worked ever...and it's pure stupidity to keep trying the same thing over and over expecting different results.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
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Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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If we cant track how illegal immigration occurs, then how do we know a wall will be effective? Secondly, we actually do have numbers for illegal immigration by expired visas through airports as an entry point.
So, if we want to actually stop illegal immigration, our solutions should address the problem as it is and not as we intuit it on little or no data.
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Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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Of course we should attempt to stop criminals from entering our country, but "criminal" should not be considered synonymous with 'immigrants staying beyond their allotted timeframe'.
Edit - brainfart. I meant to say immigrants should not be assumed criminals.
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No wall at the border is not the same as no door/lock on a home. There are plenty of cheaper options for restricting access from to the US that are more (or as) effective as the "wall".
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if it fits........ you may certainly think as you wish, but it doesn't change the facts.
doing something illegal makes you a........criminal.
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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is overstaying your visa legal? because you are the one who said that's how most people are here illegally, and if that's illegal, see definition already provided.
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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It doesnt.
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Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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A majority (60% to 90%) of unauthorized immigrants come from overstays. The Center for Migration studies and the Department of Homeland Security give us these numbers.
For the record, my original post was inaccurate. 40% of overstays fly into the country which is not "most" as I originally stated. However, it is true most unauthorized immigrants overstay their visa rather than illegally crossing the border. The wall does not address this.
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I'm not against dealing with unauthorized entry into the US, but the problem of illegal entry is grossly exaggerated as is it's supposed solution (the wall).
There are much more effective and inexpensive solutions.
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Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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Trump is not the first, nor is it his call. He (like all elected officials) represents the governed and we tell him what to do - not he other way around. "Seeing what actually happens" suggests we (the employers of Trump) have no say and this is misguided.
The fact that there are other more effective less expensive solutions (you've agreed) means the wall is a poor solution and that we should be outraged if it became a reality.
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Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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There are many things which stand in front of building a wall... funding for instance. We do have a say in that.
Also, whether or not I provide alternatives does nothing to justify a solution that does not address the bulk of illegal immigration. The idea of the wall stands or falls on it own merits. I've not seen a compelling argument for the wall.
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Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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My objection to the wall is that the problem it aims to solve (ie. Illegal immigration) will be largely unaffected by it as most unauthorized immigrants come into the country legally. This is very relevant to the discussion and not something I have failed to mention before now.
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Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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I'm not convinced a wall will keep people from crossing the southern border illegally. Even if it did, what's to stop someone from going around? It's like walling up the front door to your home (at great personal expense) and allowing 3 people to enter with permission through the patio door while a burglar lets himself in through the window. So much for the security measures on the front door and the money used to reinforce it!
Finally, there are many alternatives to a physical wall (eg, a virtual wall, border patrol, etc. - a rabbit hole of possibilities), but acceptance of the wall shouldn't come because you dont know there is an alternative. That's an argument from ignorance. You should have good reasons for endorsing a course of action - whatever it is - and "I dont know another option" is not a good reason.
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I think there were 6 guys who tried to rob a jewelry store, anyway they each paid $4500 to get smuggled into the U.S. Now if you make it substantially more difficult, it becomes a cost benefit (increased punishment would be good too) then the smugglers would have to increase their prices to make it worth while. Let's suppose they have to double their cost because of all the extra things they would need to do and extra risk involved. If the new number is now $9000 that would further eliminate those who would attempt an illegal entry just because of the finances, or lack of. Again not a 100% but it could be a much better deterrent. Currently you don't need to hire a smuggler as evidenced by people simply walking across or climbing the dilapidated fences. The current fences are of little use, mostly due to design. A remedy should have been made long ago, so here we are now.
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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Right now there are around ~450k individuals attempting to cross the border illegally per year. We stop around ~300k of those. Do you understand you are advocating a 2000 mile long wall at a cost of $70 billion and $150 million year maintenance cost with the result being inconveniencing ~150k people?
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Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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You say its grossly excessive and still want to move forward. If the facts won't dissuade you from endorsing a bad plan, I dont know what would.
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Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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I find it to be an extremely flawed reasoning to say that just because someone proposed a solution with no explicit alternative, that solution should be executed. Sometimes trying to solve the problem can only worsen the problem, and it is better to do nothing than to mess things up. I do not see how Trump's "wall" addresses anything (as has been said before, anyone with a cheap wooden ladder will easily cross the wall), however it has a lot of negative effects. It:
- Wastes an already quite limited budget.
- Antagonizes the US in the eyes of other nations, including close allies and vital economical partners.
- Creates the sense of false security, easily exploitable by actually dangerous criminals.
- Further divides an already divided nation, pitting citizens and members of the government against each other and slowing down any progress they could achieve by working together.
I do not see how building this wall is constructive from any point, other than fulfilling Trump's electoral promise (and he has failed at delivering on so many of his promises already, that one more will not make any difference neither among his supporters nor among his haters).  Considerate: 76%  
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How much did the A.C.A. website waste? Every administration wastes our tax money to some degree, don't you agree?
Has funding for the whole wall been approved yet?
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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I am not outraged at all, I am simply making an argument. And yes, I am aware that Obama and the previous presidents did not deliver on many of their promises either, and I have never said otherwise. ACA in particular was, in my opinion, an utter failure, and I have never supported the idea of state-funded healthcare in the first place.
I think building the wall is an incredibly impractical and even, dare I say, "simpletonic" idea. It does not matter who promotes this idea: Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton or anyone else. And this being the only real proposal to do something about illegal immigration (which is also up to debate; I have heard much more realistic proposals than this from other politicians) does not make it a good proposal, or even a proposal that could achieve anything positive.
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Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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Ummm, I guess I am ignoring how many of these people are criminals. Tell us, exactly how many of them are guilty of drug selling, murder, kidnapping, and prostitution. I want credited stats on the number of these refugees who are violent criminals! I'll bet those "poor refugees" would be willing to work for less money than what you expect to get paid. I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make here. These people are starving and can't find work, so you think they would want to go to Mexico? I would also like some credited statistics on who it is that is "coaching" these people. Again, your not making much sense here. I think you still think these people are only coming here to annoy you. Even though I hope it annoys you alot, I'm sure they didn't have you in mind when they decided to try and find a better life for themselves.
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